The Golden Rule of Punishing Kids
by Ellen C. Braun
Filed under Disciplining Children
There are modern parenting advisors who believe that punishing children is off-limits. They say that proper behaviors can be instilled in children without any punishments. However, punishment need not be defined as corporal punishment.
Banning corporal punishment and hitting is a reasonable position. The only exception might be the child who is not yet three years old who has done something severely dangerous, and cannot yet comprehend a verbal reprimand. Whether we like it or not, as parents, we are constantly leading by example, and when we hit our child because she did something we do not like, the little girl has learned two things; to take precautions not to get caught the next time she repeats this particular action, and when someone else who is smaller than she is does something against her liking, she should hit them.
When a child feels a loving relationship with her parents, a look of dismay, or a comment such as, “That makes me very sad, and I don’t want to feel that way about your behavior,” is a punishment in itself. Ignoring a child for a moment or two because, “Right now I’m too upset to talk to you,” or simply leaving the room sends a clear message of disapproval, and is normally enough of a punishment.
When do your children need to be reprimanded or removed from the situation where they acted out? When is it advisable to overlook your child’s negative conduct and minor infractions?
The golden rule of thumb is this: When a child has done something that is age-appropriate, no punishment is needed. Conversely, if a child committed an act that was totally inappropriate for her age, then you should punish him in one of the methods described above.
When a six-year-old refers to a guest as “the man with the big nose,” parents tend to get upset, however it is totally age-appropriate for a youngster to describe the features they see without any intention of insulting the person. It is a good idea to tell her that we do not talk about the way people look in front of them; however a punishment would be totally uncalled for.
Ask yourself this question, “Will she do it when she is eighteen?” If the answer is no, you can generally feel confident dealing with the situation without a negative reaction.
If the child’s deed is age-appropriate conduct, a gentle explanation of proper behavior will certainly suffice.
No related posts.
I would very much appreciate some literature regarding adolescent discipline Particularly for my partner (who has no had children of his own) and is of a mature age (52)
My teenage son (15) is my third and last child and I would like to enjoy what time I have with him at home. IN HARMONYi
So would I! I home educate my two wonderful girls of 12 and 14 and having them with me 24/7 can lead to conflicts. Mainly due to not tidying up after themselves or forgetting to do tasks they have been set.
Wonderful website. Thank you so much.
I think that this “gentle” brand of Christian parenting people like you try to pass off is very sad. We cannor pick and choose what parts of the bible to go by, and the bible…GOD’S WORD…clearly lays out a plan for physical chastisement. I think you need to read your bible again!
To commenter Shannon (who takes God’s word to mean ‘physical chastisement’) – please consider “What would Jesus do?” in disciplining his children/his disciples? Would He physically chastise, or would he teach them firmly and lovingly, yet without violence? Please take a look at biblically supported grace-based discipline, a wonderful resource for parents is here:
http://www.aolff.org/GBDhome.html
And this book is a wonderful bound resource:
‘Biblical Parenting’ by Crystal Lutton
You may find that modelling appropriate behavior (hitting if you want your children to hit, or NOT hitting if you want your children not to hit) is a most powerful, biblical, and Christian parenting approach.
I have some half-formatted articles regarding disciplining teenagers that I have to finish writing!
Hmmm… I’m at a loss regarding what I missed from the Bible about childrearing? Yes, Lynne, I agree that modelling is particularly powerful!
I would like to remind Shannon (and others who insist on reading the Bible literally in all instances) that there area chastisements for wives, mothers, husbands, and fathers too! I doubt you would wholeheartedly agree to those as they might be applied to you the adult.
There are powerful stories for teaching powerful lessons in both the Old and New Testaments however as a Christian I let Jesus be my guide. I try to remember our children are not ours but rather in our keeping as a cherished gift from God. I try to remember to speak to them, care for them, treat them as I would want others to behave with me and as I would behave with my husband.
It really *is* more work to guide a child and model the appropriate behaviors than it is to beat them and scare them into blind acceptance and submission. I want my child to grow into a self regulating, caring, loving, emotionally developed person rather than someone who makes decisions based on the outcomes of getting caught *or* the reward they will get. (Read *Punished By Rewards* by Alfie Kohn)
I believe God gave my child an innate sense of curiosity and love of the learning. I believe if I support and nurture that love it will only grow. Just as I can’t look at the type of foods and amounts of food my toddler eats at a meal but rather the food consumption of a week or more to know and see the big picture, I must look at my child’s whole person and whole set of learning opportunities from start to finish to knwo they are learning, growing, developing in ways that are important and appropriate to the child.
Thanks Ellen!
I would love to know your take on ‘stealing’. It’s something my 5 yo has started doing (a cheap (I’m not condoning because of the price, just stating a fact) toy from a shop, some sweets from another shop and a toy from a friend). I am at a loss how to deal with it because she doesn’t seem to quite understand yet that it is ‘wrong’ so the incentive to change isn’t there.
how would some of you wise, loving people deal with it?
I think to say yes or no to physical punishment by means of judging parents who do or do not use physical punishment would be missing one of the most frequently mentioned and vital components of both the Bibles’ and Jesus’ message. To love one another.
I do think that if we take Christ and pick apart his life, only looking at him for his gift, and his healings we miss a really important part of his character, his passion and his ability to forcefully send a message. Such as turning over tables in the temple and shouting at the venders and money changers. So yes, Christ was giving, he was unconditionally loving, but he was passionate and presented the message he needed to present in different ways each time you see him working. So portraying Christ only as a babe in a manger or as the man who sacrificed all for us, is leaving out vital parts of who he was as a whole.
I don’t disagree with corporal punishment, but I have yet to decide a. if it’s for me and my family and b. if it’s a useful tool in correction. I do get very upset however when people polarize the issue, backing it up with single Bible references rather than taking the entire verse in context, and comparing the real use of the rod in sheep herding to physical punishment. I also get upset however when people mention verses of the bible that we don’t follow in this modern age and say we don’t go by everything the bible says, so why think we should follow this? I think there are reasons things are listed in the bible that don’t make sense to us today, but I think it’s very dangerous ground for us to stand on and think we know enough to pick and choose what biblical rules and comments to follow and which to leave behind. God isn’t going to give us a free pass in Heaven for our own ignorance because we *choose* to follow the wrong wisdom of someone else, or because we *choose* not to study scripture and pray until he revealed truths to us and guided us in HIS will.
Now that i’ve written a novel JUST based on the comments, i’ll touch the article. I don’t think it’s a good idea to say if it’s age appropriate don’t punish. Hitting, biting, throwing toys is all age appropriate for toddlers. Lying, stealing, making up stories is all age appropriate for elementary schoolers. Is it appropriate in life however? Is it appropriate for a mom to sit back in a playgroup with 4 other parents and watch their child hit another child over a handful of legos and say, oh it’s age appropriate, he’ll grow out of it? Or would it be better to administer an age appropriate punishment? It would be a dangerous world out there if parents didn’t discipline or train their children WHEN they do age appropriate but not life appropriate behaviors, every action needs a reaction, but depending on what it is that’s when you determine how you’re going to make it a teachable moment. For the example the guy with the big nose, you could either have him apologize for saying something hurtful, or quietly take him aside later and explain, people have feelings, and everyone is special in their own way but not all of us looks alike, and when we see someone different we should tell mommy or daddy in a whisper or talk about it later. I guess after all this what i’m saying is, if something your child does hurts or affects someone else, you as a parent are responsible for teaching them to be kind, to treat others with respect, and to come to mommy or daddy if they have a problem or a question.
Cheers, Kristina! I couldn’t agree more with your reactions and points.
Kristina wrote: If something your child does hurts or affects someone else, you as a parent are responsible for teaching them to be kind, to treat others with respect, and to come to mommy or daddy if they have a problem or a question.
I say:
Yes, but punishment is not kind OR respectful — neither is it the only way children learn. Your comment is based on the idea that children won’t learn unless they’re punished.
Tell me, is that the only way you learn? Think back to the last time you felt punished. What was it like? Were in the position to learn from your mistake? Or were your feelings directed toward the person who punished you?
Nonverbal children are not stupid, and they are not animals. They have feelings just like adults do, and they learn best when they feel safe. If you can’t explain why a certain behavior is wrong in words and voice tone, how are you going to explain why Mommy is hitting her baby??
I completely agree with Kristina. The previous comment she criticizes, “if it is age-appropriate, don’t punish” is absolutely foolish indeed. Children need to be directed in the ways of richeous living. The Bible clearly teaches that we are prone to sin, born as sinners in a sinful world, and CANNOT do good unless we are directed in that path. Punishment can indeed be both kind and appropriate, and the exact method of which may look different for different children. I greatly appreciate her openness to that, and completely agree that those who do engage in corporal punishment are not necessarily wrong for doing so.
Steven says:
“Children need to be directed in the ways of richeous living….Punishment can indeed be both kind and appropriate, and the exact method of which may look different for different children.”
How is punishment EVER kind? And how, exactly, does punishment meet the need that children have to be “directed in the ways of richeous (sic) living”? How do you teach a positive with a negative? I myself have never been successful at that. I find it’s much easier to teach my children how to do right and love others when I do right and act in love myself.
And no, spanking is NOT an expression of love, no matter what your rhetoric. Spanking is hitting, and hitting is not kind. Parents may spank because they believe they have to, but children do not experience it as kindness.
(I believe adults in abusive relationships are often trying to reconcile painful and confusing childhoods during which the adults in their lives hit them “because they loved them.”)
If you are a Christian who believes that Christ died to pay for all of our sins, why is it so hard to believe that He might have already paid for the sins of your children?
Did Christ not take enough lashes to cover the errors of a child??
Apparently, I’m not finished commenting on this thread.
“When we hit our child because she did something we do not like, the little girl has learned two things; to take precautions not to get caught the next time she repeats this particular action, and when someone else who is smaller than she is does something against her liking, she should hit them.”
This I agree with. But I do not see why those results should be any different with a preverbal child. Nor do I see a difference between hitting and other punishment. A child who is punished in any form, is still going to be motivated by a negative — NOT getting caught, NOT getting punished.
Punishment does not teach what IS appropriate, nor does it meet the need that led to the behavior in the first place. Unless, of course, the need is attention, and then a child who is desperate for attention will do anything for it, as long as some kind of attention accompanies the negative consequences.
Ellen wrote:
“The golden rule of thumb is this: When a child has done something that is age-appropriate, no punishment is needed. Conversely, if a child committed an act that was totally inappropriate for her age, then you should punish him in one of the methods described above.”
How is a parent supposed to know what behaviors are “age-appropriate” for his or her child? Who determines that? Is there some book that has it all laid out for us? And how did the author determine his list? Does the author know MY child? Does he know YOURS?
Tell me, do you ever do anything that’s not “age-appropriate,” that you already know you shouldn’t do? Do you ever lose your temper with your child? Do you ever get angry at your husband and lash out with words or immature behaviors?
What happens then? How do you feel when he turns away and refuses to talk to you about your concern? Defensive? Ignored? Angrier? How would you LIKE your spouse to respond? With patience? A listening ear? A willingness to problem-solve?
Have you ever simply apologized and tried to figure out why you reacted so strongly to the situation? Do you try to look at stressors in your life that might be contributing to a temporary lack of control and make changes that will help? If so, don’t you owe your child the same?
“Ignoring a child for a moment or two because, “Right now I’m too upset to talk to you,” or simply leaving the room sends a clear message of disapproval, and is normally enough of a punishment.”
Fear-based emotional manipulation is no closer to unconditional love than hitting is. If this article is truly about parenting via the Golden Rule, shouldn’t we ask ourselves how we would like to be treated when WE misbehave?
(There are men out there who believe they have the right to punish their wives, because women are weak/inferior/lesser and should obey the men they are dependent upon, and because husbands are responsible for their wives’ spiritual growth and leading them to “righteousness.” (Sound familiar?) Punishment leads to spiritual growth, these people say. I don’t see a lot of criminals coming out of prison reformed.)
Wives can leave. Children cannot. Children are dependent on us to help them sort out their feelings, to limit the stress in their lives, to give them options that allow them some freedom and control within safe limits. They are dependent on us for the unconditional love that they need and crave.
This article does nothing to address the WHY of children’s behavior. Behavior that is not simply the result of a child “not knowing better” is a cry for help and/or for love, not a cry for punishment.
Parents need to know how to meet their children’s needs in order to PREVENT negative behavior, and how to address their unmet needs in a loving, nonviolent way.
I highly recommend Alfie Kohn’s “Unconditional Parenting” and “Connection Parenting: Parenting through Connection instead of Coercion, Through Love instead of Fear” by Pam Leo, if you’re still reading this.
Amanda i’m not even going to try to dispute your points, I could spend the next hour writing well thought out contradictory statements, but it’s honestly not worth it, my goal in life isn’t to change other peoples opinions, or to judge other peoples parenting. I would however caution you not to judge other people, holding such stiff necked and narrowminded opinions can limit the group of people you allow yourself to be blessed by, you might just find that the person you shrugged off because you found out she spanks her son could’ve given you a nice chunk of information on dealing with time outs, or bedwetting, or just be a really good listener and sturdy friend.
I’d also suggest you read any book by Dr. Dobson, Parenting with Love and Logic, or my personal favorite Boundaries with Kids.
“If you are a Christian who believes that Christ died to pay for all of our sins, why is it so hard to believe that He might have already paid for the sins of your children?
Did Christ not take enough lashes to cover the errors of a child??”
If I sin, I am punished, the Bible says so quite clearly and in many different places. I will be punished by God, or by the result of my circumstances, that doesn’t mean God won’t forgive me, that the blood Jesus shed for me won’t cleanse me and bring me near to them again. Sometimes I find that God does not punish me for what my mistakes deserve, I call this grace, and I believe in parenting there are times to extend grace to my children as well, but I also think there are times when my children should learn from their mistakes, either by me stepping out and letting them have the natural consequences of their mistakes, or by be stepping in and issuing a “crime fitting punishment” for their mistakes. I try to be creative, I try to best mold the punishment for the infraction, but the most often used “punishments” in our home are time outs (you hit your brother, disobeyed or ignored me and you will be pulled from your activity and given time to sit out from the fun and think about how you can do better next time), losing tv or computer privileges, or missing out on a trip to the store with daddy or such. The mistake I see you making is equating the word punishment with only ever a spanking.
“Fear-based emotional manipulation is no closer to unconditional love than hitting is. If this article is truly about parenting via the Golden Rule, shouldn’t we ask ourselves how we would like to be treated when WE misbehave?”
The answer to your question, is no, because when I misbehave, I don’t want to be punished, I don’t want to feel the sting of words when I disrespect or mistreat a friend, I don’t want to deal with the anger from my husband when I ignore his opinion and do something without thought of his feelings, I don’t like the reaction to my negative behaviors, however I do know that when I say something thoughtless to a friend and she tells me how it hurt her, it does sting, rightfully so, I feel chastiesd and accussed, then I grow. I become a better friend by thinking before I speak. I don’t like having an angry hurt spouse, or dealing with the aftermath of a moment where I disrespected his feelings and thought only of myself, I don’t like him pulling away from me because I hurt him, it stings, I feel lonely, I feel like becoming angry back even though I know i’m in the wrong, but if I stop and think, and apologize, I grow, I become a better wife.
There is a stark difference between manipulation of any kind, and bumping into boundaries and feeling the sting of our own action.
My husband and I were raised in vastly different homes, my father is bipolar which went undiagnosed until late into my teen years, the slightest disobedience, the tiniest infraction, the smallest annoyance would have me on the wrong side of whatever instrument he felt like using at the time to administer the “spanking” the abuse I endured at his hand, was nothing compared to the abuse I felt over my mother who stood by and watched. My husband was raised in a quiet, steady, conservative christian home. He and his sisters were all raised with the same general discipline techniques, time outs, restrictions, groundings and yes even spankings. He’ll tell you now the spankings he recieved were well deserved, and his parents made sure each and every time he and his sisters were disciplined in whatever form or fashion that they were held, and hugged afterword, because the point wasn’t to alienate or emotionally punish the child, the point was to teach them, this behavior is wrong, this is the consequence. Following any consequence in their home they were held, hugged, talked to about the behavior and consequence and then they prayed together. Now which one of us do you think needed therapy when they grew up?
Amanda, you are assuming by punishment I mean physical punishment. Punishment comes in many forms, some physical, some natural, and some creatively thought up by parents to give their child a consequence for a negative action, not to show them “who’s boss” but to say, hey that wasn’t okay.
“Tell me, is that the only way you learn? Think back to the last time you felt punished. What was it like? Were in the position to learn from your mistake? Or were your feelings directed toward the person who punished you?”
The only way? No, but one way, yes. I CAN think back and honestly I can say my initial feelings were embarrassment and anger AT the person, then following was understanding and ashamed for my behavior, after apologizing and talking I felt good about the relationship and was able to gain some insight and I feel like I actually learned something. Will I never again speak unkindly to my spouse? No i’m certain it will happen again, did I learn how to better handle my words? Yes.
See this problem comes up whenever the word punished is used. Would it be better if I used the term correction or consequence? As in I corrected my children, rather than I punished them, for fighting with eachother and ending up with bloody noses? Or I gave my son a consequence for eating next to daddys computer when I told him not to.
The thing is I never once said I spank, I simply said I don’t disagree with spanking and I mentioned the fact that i’m Christian in not so many words. This to some people immediately gives the impression of Bible thumping, door to door knocking, sidewalk preaching, judgemental, and narrowminded parenting. To jump to a conclusion without evidence is just plain wrong.
As for the punishment not being kind or respectful, tell me WHAT is disrespectful specifically about time outs, what is unkind about removing a toy, or a video game from my sons collection for hurting his brother? Would it be kind to say, lets not hurt brother, go along and play now, then hope he simply grows out of it? How is that in anyway shape or form making our home safe, loving, and stable for my other son? I strongly believe children will grow up relatively the same as how their raised, meaning, if you administer no consequences as children, give them no boundaries, then as adults they will quickly and with a whole lot more physical and emotional pain than they would have as children learn the results of their behaviors. When you hit someone because you feel like it, you go to jail. When you spend your money because you feel like it, and no one stops you, you can’t pay your bills and lose out in life. When you mistreat your friends with controlling or abusive tactics, you lose them.
A difference of perspectives I suppose, or it could be we’re thinking the same thing, but you’re hung up on a word, and an action, and can’t see any farther than that.
Kristina,
First, thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. I know this is a very controversial subject, and my goal was not to come across “stiff-necked and narrow-minded,” but simply to share an alternate opinion. I have done a lot of praying, reading and thinking about this subject, and obviously my passion came through in my post. I am also a Christian, and I honestly was not judging you personally.
My strong opinions about spanking and other forms of punishment have NOT limited my friendships. Two of my closest friends spank their children, though probably less often than when we first met. They know I do not believe in spanking, but our differing opinions do not hinder our friendships. They most certainly are “good listeners and sturdy friends,” and I believe they consider me the same.
“I will be punished by God, or by the result of my circumstances, that doesn’t mean God won’t forgive me, that the blood Jesus shed for me won’t cleanse me and bring me near to them again.”
I have heard many people say similar things in regard to being punished by God, and it saddens me. Personally, that has not been my experience, and I have been a Christian for most of my life. I do not perceive God punishing me. Life in this fallen world can be punishing, certainly, and the Lord does not always step in to protect me from the consequences of my sin, but I do not blame Him for those consequences. Many times He does step in, and then He points back and says, “Look — your actions could have led to something much worse, but I protected you. You can trust Me.” Other times, He lets me experience pain and grief, whether from my own sin or as the result of another’s. At those times He consoles me, and reminds me that He will never leave me, even when I don’t feel Him near, and that the pain will not destroy me. This is very different from deliberating creating something in my life to punish me for past sins as retribution or in order to teach me.
“As for the punishment not being kind or respectful, tell me WHAT is disrespectful specifically about time outs, what is unkind about removing a toy, or a video game from my sons collection for hurting his brother?”
They are disrespectful because they are abitrary and other-directed. When you hurt your husband, he might leave the room to disengage and protect himself, but no one sends you to your room or the corner. Nor does anyone declare that your computer time will be limited. Why not? Because it’s not necessary, and it would seem ridiculous.
“Would it be kind to say, lets not hurt brother, go along and play now, then hope he simply grows out of it? How is that in anyway shape or form making our home safe, loving, and stable for my other son?”
“Lets not hurt brother, go along and play now” is certainly not the only thing a parent can say besides “go to your room” or some other punishment! I, and others who parent like I do, have succeeded in making our homes safe, loving and stable for all family members WITHOUT the use of punishment, spanking or otherwise. Violence MUST be taken seriously, whether committed by parents or by siblings!
I think there are three issues at debate here. One is whether parent-produced consequences are necessary for learning better behavior. Another is whether they are necessary as payment for the child’s offense. And third is what action should be taken to protect the victim of the behavior.
Adults who commit serious crimes are sent to prison, presumably to address all three issues. But most of recognize that very little positive learning happens in prison.
How does taking away a child’s video games protect his sibling? It does not. How does it teach him how to better solve his conflicts with his sibling? It does not. So, in that case, punishment is simply a means of retribution.
Separating the child from his brother may protect him temporarily. But, again, it does not help him learn how to solve the next conflict without violence. Setting him in time-out does not give him skills, no matter how hard he thinks about what he just did or how sorry he is that he got punished for it. Nor does not address why he hit in the first place.
Punishment done for the sake of learning rather than retribution is based on the ideas of behaviorism. Behaviorists considered humans animals. They did not recognize the soul. They believe in creating external motivations in order to control behaviors. I do not. I want my children to do good for good’s sake, not because they are afraid of the consequences otherwise. I want them to do good DESPITE the consequences — just think of all the good that would not be done in the world if people didn’t overcome their fear of personal negative consequences?
Most people assume that punishment/arbitrary consequences are the only option for disciplining problem behavior. My point is that they are NOT the only option, and they are not even an EFFECTIVE or GOOD option.
Neither is the alternative to simply let children do whatever without any guidance. Children WANT information on how to live peacefully and healthfully. I have three delightful children who do not need external punishment heaped on them in order for them to learn from their choices. They do need clear guidelines to start with and correction at times. But mostly we try to problem-solve together so that everyone’s needs are met BEFORE conflicts arise.
I believe our difference in opinion is two-fold. One, I believe children can and should learn without arbitrary external motivators. Two, I believe Christ has already paid for our sins, and so no further retribution is necessary.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify my beliefs.
Monique, (#6) It really *is* more work to guide a child and model the appropriate behaviors than it is to beat them and scare them into blind acceptance and submission.
Yes. That is correct, if God’s goal of Biblical chastisement was to beat them and scare them into blind acceptance and submission. If all God intended was that Biblical chastisement was punitive, then I agree with you. But you have just let the culture tell you what God means by Biblical chastisement; instead of letting Him tell you. Correct biblical chastisement is one of the ways allowable – even encouraged by God Himself – to guide a child to appropriate behaviors. It is a training tool, therefore the term ‘rod of correction.’ Used correctly, it is a valid and vital part of any Christian parent’s tool box.
Please read the 23rd Psalm , considered perhaps one of most comforting scriptures. As you recognize that the ‘rod’ mention there is the same rod spoken of in the other passages having to do with child raising, you can begin to see how very different this use is than what you have been taught by our culture, and what you are trying to teach us here.
Used properly, the rod and the staff (both actual physical props for guiding behavior)bring a comfort.
Shelley, It is hard to help our children understand why something is wrong, when they are so young, and haven’t developed the moral character. You mentioned that her incentive to change is not there, and we can not expect it to be there for one so young. As she grows, assuming you are teaching her the Bible, eventually her incentive not to steal will be because she internalizes that stealing is wrong and she desire to do right. So the key is to create an incentive to NOT steal, right now, until her maral character catches up. The lust for the toy is so strong that you need to find something she wants even more than the toy, or you need to make the toy less appealing. This is a perfect example of where the Biblical use of the ‘rod of correction’ can be applied.
Let’s look at a naturally occuring example to see what I am trying to say here:a child that has a fasination with fire will try to touch it despite how many warning and incentives to not touch. However, the first time that child actually feels the fire, she will most likely never have to be told not to do that again.(assuming she is a healthy child). Her desire to not feel that pain again is all the incentive she needs to correct her behavior. She no longer finds pleasure in the fire because she learned to associate it with pain. The pain of the fire was not a punishment was it? No, it was a consequence.
The correct use of the Biblical rod can mimic this same naturally occuring learning process. A quick couple of spanks to the child can be administered to give the same naturally ocurring consequence as the pain of touching the fire. The spank is not a punishment any more than the fire was, simply because the parent administered the consequence and it didn’t occur without parental intervention. The spank is also a consequence, and is a training tool. As the child (and believe me she will learn quickly) associates stealing with physical pain, she will find that all the incentive she needs to stop stealing, thus giving her moral character time to catch up.
Shelly, to continue, I recognize that many parents just are not at the point in ther lives that they can administer the Biblical rod. And I respect that. The other suggestion I have it to make the consequence of stealing far outweith the moment of pleasure she received in the act. Only you know your child and what that threshold is. For some, even at age 5, it is significant enough out of their comfort zone that they be marched back to the store and made to publicallly apologize to the clerk or manager for stealing. Perhaps your child would respond to having to give up a toy of your choice to another child in exchange for the one she stole. Personally, we have had success in following the Biblical idea of paying back the stolen item plus 10 persent above it’s value- unless that is impossible, as in the case of candy, for example, in which case it is to pay back in kind or monetery equavelant plus 10 percent.
Hope these ideas help. As a side note to my earlier post about the rod, this can be used most effectively as a training tool only when it can be administered immediately after the infraction. As a training tool, it loses its effectiveness the longer the time has passed. And if your children are anything like mine, too often we hear about these things days after the event!
Hello Gail,
Thank you for taking so much time to respond to my comment. I truly value you spending that time on my post.
I understand perfectly your example of the fire and that getting burned is a natural consequence of touching the flame.
However, I do not agree that spanking a child is a *natural* consequence at all. The Natural consequence of stealing is more likely to be that the store owner feels angry or sad that someone has taken something that belongs to him.
I completely respect you are coming from a biblical background, but I am not. If I spank my child for ‘bad behaviour’ then, imo, she will simply learn that hitting is ok.
My daughter is not yet given an allowance; she has no concept of money or ‘value’ so the cost plus 10% would not work, but I tend to favour going to the store owner and apologising – not humiliating her, but giving her the opportunity to realise that the natural consequence of her actions is that someone else feels sad / angry. That also helps to develop her already apparant empathic nature.
Thank you for helping me to clarify my own thoughts on this. Also, what goes around comes around and the other day a friend of hers tried to take one of my daughter’s toys home with her. My daughter felt upset and I gently reinforced, whilst validating her pain that it doesn’t feel good if people take things that don’t belong to them.
Thanks again,
Shelley
Shelly, thank you for helping me to clarify what I meant. I agree that spanking is not a natural consequence. I meant to suggest that it could mimic a naturally occuring consequence of pain. thank you for your honesty in admitting you are not coming at this issue from a biblical standpoint. This shows me that I need to be very careful of my ‘audience’ when suggesting the ‘rod’. I strongly believe that unless one comes at ‘rod training’ from a biblical standpoint then they must not use it at all. This ‘rod of correction’ can only be understood within it’s specific Biblical parameters. Otherwise it is too easy to slip into areas of abuse, retribution, etc.
Thanks for sharing how your situation is continuing with your little girl. I love how life has a way of teaching us all!
Gail
I would very much like any advice or resources on parenting an 11 yr old girl!! I have 2 children, my youngest is a 7 yr old boy in the 2nd grade. My oldest is 11 and is in 6th grade this year and in our city, it is in it’s own campus and they are treating them as jr highers. She is an exceptional student, but we are entering the teen years earlier than when I was this age and I find the pressures of friends coming into play very much….
Amanda,
I have found your insite most interseting and insightful and greatly applaud your seemingly unconditional loving methods; however, you fail to advice as to what (exactly) those methods are. You continue to tell us what not to do, yet fail to advice us on what God WOULD have us do.
We have thus far tried time-outs and loving words, but what do YOU do when words don’t work the first time, or even the second time???
What do you do?
Thank you for your love and passion for all children!
Olivia, thank you so much for your encouraging words! I do see that I have mostly negated the negative, but not explained the positive. You asked:
“We have thus far tried time-outs and loving words, but what do YOU do when words don’t work the first time, or even the second time???
What do you do?”
I guess my question to you would be, what is your goal? I don’t know your children, what desires they might be expressing, and what your specific concerns are. God relates to each of His children individually, and that’s just what we need to do with our children. Parenting should be about creating connection with your child, so that problem-solving becomes a natural, even if sometimes challenging, part of your relationship.
Connection with your child on a regular basis leads to trust. When you trust your child, you don’t worry about controlling every little action that may not meet your standards but is simply part of their learning process. And when your child trusts you, it is much easier to get their attention when it really is important.
So often we don’t realize how our emotions and behavior as adults effect our children. When we are stressed, they sense it, and it upsets their sense of security. This is when they are most likely to “act out,” which is merely a way of telling the parent that they are feeling uncertain and need the reassurance of your unconditional love. But because we are already stressed, we *react* to their behavior instead of *responding* to their need, which leads to a cycle of disconnection. If, when our child does something we don’t like, we can STOP, BREATHE, LISTEN, and THINK first, we might see what’s happening more clearly and make the effort needed to *reconnect* with our child BEFORE deciding what kind of action needs to be taken, if any.
When I’m really paying attention to my own stress level, emotions and behavior, and keeping my daily priorities in line, I don’t have “behavioral issues” to deal with. That doesn’t mean there’s never conflict, but it does make it much easier to find solutions, because there aren’t so many underlying emotions to be dealt with.
So, what specifically do I do? I pray a lot. I give hugs and kisses! I play when they want play. I feed myself well and often! I make an effort not to cram so many expectations into a day that we feel rushed. I focus on enjoying the moment. I try to learn from my kids — remember they are fresh from God!
I hope that helps.
Blessings,
Amanda
Hi everyone,
This page has gotten lots of comments and questions! I’d like to invite all of you who have specific questions over to the new forum: http://www.raisingsmallsouls.com/forums/ (simply click ‘register’ and choose a username and password you’ll always remember!). It’s much simpler to have an organized back-and-forth virtual conversation on the forum!
See you there:)
Ellen
I read these comments with iterest. My dad spanked me, yet I am not a violent person. Neither is my brother. I spanked my children the same way, and all three are caring, sensitive, and tenderhearted toward those weaker than themselves – people and animals. My dad was a gentle man. In fact, I once found myself thanking him for the loving way he disciplined me. My personal experience doesn’t fit what I’m reading on this subject. I would be curious to know how one would treat such statements as Proverbs 20:30, Proverbs 23:13-14, Hebrews 12:5-11, or just take a concordance and check out the many references to “chastizement”. Was a rod was only used to guide or protect sheep? It doesn’t look like it.
Way to go Richard! My thoughts exactly. I would like to take a poll from the others to see how many of you were spanked when you were children? Do you function in society???
Amanda wrote: “And no, spanking is NOT an expression of love, no matter what your rhetoric. Spanking is hitting, and hitting is not kind. Parents may spank because they believe they have to, but children do not experience it as kindness.”
And – out of those that were spanked, how many of you feel your parents are unkind or that they didn’t love you? My parents spanked me and I didn’t do it again. If I did, I knew what the consequences were going to be, another spanking. Along with a spanking I was taught to respect myself and others and most important, to respect the rules no matter where we were. My parents loved me. My self-esteem has not been damaged.
I am an employee of a public school. Do you know how many times children have said to a grown up on our campus “my parents won’t spank me, I don’t care”……..Children are not taught RESPECT in the degree that our past generations have. Do you know how many children take lunch detention everyday (time out) and go back to class and repeat the same offense because because “my parents won’t spank me”. Children are smart.
As for modeling behavior? Do you know how many parents don’t follow the school procedures and rules and get angry and upset because THEY don’t think that the rules set by the school are appropriate? “It’s ok to go through the short cut in the car line because we are in a hurry.” “It’s ok to be late to class and disrupt EVERYONE else because we were up late last night.” Or do you know how many parents try to take the blame for their child’s responsibilities and actions? “It wasn’t his fault he didn’t have his homework, we didn’t go straight home after football practice.” “I’m sorry I’m stressed out today, my emotions are way out of wack. That must be why he kicked his friend….”
Monique wrote: “It really *is* more work to guide a child and model the appropriate behaviors than it is to beat them and scare them into blind acceptance and submission.”
A child who is beaten and scared is abused. Those parents should be in jail. Spanking is not abuse. If spanking is not right for you, so be it. But don’t claim that I am taking the easy way out and beating my children and scaring them into blind acceptance and submission. The mother in the grocery store is not beating their child, they are communicating an expectation of respectful behavior. If a child misbehaves, it is not logical to hold that punishment off until no one is around. My children are loved unconditionally, but they are spanked. And guess what?! They are happy, social, have high self-esteems, active in sports, straight A students, respectful, prayerful, active in church, well liked by their peers, looked up to by each other, successful, helpful, and the list could go on. They know that they are loved.
(Terri Lynn – this is just an idea that works at our house)
We trust our teenager and soon to be (and they know that because I tell them constantly) until they give us a reason not to trust them. Then, after the “punishment” whether it is a spanking, grounding, a job assigned (digging up stickers, picking up rocks off the property, washing the windows, or any “job” not already expected from them such as dishes, trash, clean room) etc. they are told that they have to build that trust back with us. We don’t give in – NO MATTER HOW BAD THE CRYING IS – we are consistent and firm with our words. They have been known to have to copy bible verses dealing with “how to treat others” or respect, or obeying rules during their “time outs”. When they are allowed to go places again, they are always checked on, parents are communicated with and questioned and they are expectecd to gain our trust again by making the right choices.
All children are different and some are certainly more stubborn and hard-headed than others. It is unfair I feel to say that spanking should never be done. Some children do respond to spanking in a positive way, BUT ONLY when it is done in such a way that does not invlove anger and getting carried away. There IS a loving way to spank. Calmly communicating to your child in a loving way why this is happening and that you love them very much can be effective. If all other forms of disciplining have failed, spanking can be effective if done the right way, lovingly and calmly.
When the Bible refers to “spare the rod, spoil the child”, it is a reference to a shepherd’s staff as the ‘rod’. The shepherd uses that staff to guide the sheep to safety, NOT TO BEAT THEM!
Parents who are frustrated and perhaps had parents who also misinterpreted this biblical injunction, lack the specific skills to discipline: MEANING TO TEACH. This frustration leads to aggression – there are scientific studies that show the undeniable link between frustration and aggression. The ideas presented in Ellen’s column are appriopriate, kind [you may substitute Christian here] and, perhaps, most important, EFFECTIVE.
Jesus was not violent. All His methods were thoughtful and used the enemy’s own deficits against them, not violent. In a word, it was intelligent.
No ‘book’ of any religion actually advocates violence. It is man’s interpretation that takes out the parents’ frustration on the children.
Using punishment creates two sure restuls: violent children who try to solve their interpersonal issues violently, and children who don’t trust their parents and may learn to seek revenge rather than pro-social alternatives to the skills they have yet to learn.
After reading many of these posting it is true that the topic that is being discussed is DISCIPLINE. Yes, the root of discipline is “to teach”. Many of you are trying to teach your children how to be appropriate. It comes across harsh and probably much harsher than intended when the word punish or punishment is used.
There are many ways to teach children about appropriate and inappropriate behaviors. Our backgrounds, culture, education, children, values, etc. play a big part in how we choose to teach our children. As many have stated in this post and others is that what works or is precieved as good for a particular family or situation may or may not work in another. Right or wrong? Probably just different.
For those who are refering to biblical principals and Jesus. He descipled…or taught others. Yes, at times it may have seemed He was “tough”. But His goal was to model behavior and teach others according to the principals and laws of God. Sometimes teaching others needs to be tough so the message is understood and meaningful. Other times it may be sweet and tender.
My point is that if we continue this discussion using the word discipline conversations may go farther and we can all learn from sharing with out criticizing or causing others to feel bad for giving their opinions.
I think that the old ways are best. Spare the rod spoil the child. I also believe that the tough love attitude is best. It states Families cannot be democracies. A democratic family is more prone to chaos and crisis. A parent is not elected to the position of authority and there is no room for competition or election promises. A parent is given full authority upon the birth of their child.
Parents need to be the clear authority figures in a family and bear the weight of responsibilities. It is important for parents to approach their authority and responsibility as that of a “Benevolent Dictator,” providing rules based on love and reasonable expectations and strictly enforcing them. I have no problem with spanking.
My kids live with their mom(who is very laid back like most of you). They are all teens. My youngest son acts way way outta line. I believe that if he cant act the way I expect him to and show me and my wife respect he cant come to my home. When these kids get into the real world they will find that most bosses wont tolerate them “expressing themselves.” It is the parents job to train the kids for adulthood. Punishment in adulthood will be way more severe than any childhood punishments.
I think that there is two sides or three sides to everything For me and my husband (the head of this household) we spank We have tried the talking and the limits none of them work our 5 yr daughter lets evrything go in one ear and out of the other She had no respect for anyone I came from a family that didnt spank and I have notice that the some of the kids in my Family is pot heads and they stay in jail. My 14 yr sister will throw a fit in the store when my mom dont buy her what she is wanting I refuse to go with them to a store My 12 yr Brother is the same way My mom just talk to them and they still act this way “Everyone owes them any thing they want because they have always throwed a fit and got what they want”so how does talking them works My daughter has started to pick up their habitit and I m not going to take it.I think that some of you need to read “TRAIN UP A CHILD” by Michael Pearl
I agree with Jennifer. There are many different thoughts and beliefs when it comes to discipline, age appropriate behavior, etc…. When it comes to using the bible and incorporating it into discipline it gets a little confusing for the most intelligent person. Sometimes it is hard to tell if Jesus’ words are symbolic or not. Was he speaking in parables? Someone stated Proverbs 20:30. “Blows and wounds cleanse away evil, and beatings purge the inmost the inmost being.” When I read that, my child was the last thing on my mind. What I though of instantly was back in those days people that were eplileptic were thought of as crazy or even possessed and they tried to “beat and purge” the demons out of them.
I think that things were very very different then and one must always consider the change when reading a bible passage and then acting on it in todays society.
After many years of thinking about this particular subject I have come to the conclusion that when it comes to what Jesus said – We all have read the same scriptures and have found our own truth from them – That is how different forms of religion and Christianity came about. As a Buddhist I recognize EVERYONES religious nature as there own salvation and the place they turn to for strength and comfort and what is important is that it works for the individual.
Many posts on here said that the negative consequences of the action of the child will be enough and being harshly punished will teach them to only try and not get caught again. I agree with this as it has worked for my daughter who is three. I had been using the “naughty chair” and then saw the look in my daughters eyes when I mentioned the words and felt I was manipulating her. So now we “find a place to sit down and talk.” She is hyperlexic and has a problem answering me and it doesnt even look as though she is listening.
But..never assume that things are going “in one ear and out the other” with a child. They are little sponges. I hear her repeat things I said over a week ago when I told her not to do something and why–”Keep the water in the tub because the carpet will get yucky” she said while taking a bath. They are not always equipped to do what we say, when we say to do it–they think about it first and decide if they want to keep doing it and being reprimanded for it. Patience is the key to any child–paired with consistency we will eventually get the result that is needed/wanted for us and the child.
In my last post I had forgotten to touch on the spanking issue.
Someone mentioned that he was spanked in his home and had felt it was deserved and Carolyn said she wanted a poll on how many children were spanked and if they function in society.
I was spanked as a child and so were my brothers and sisters. A couple of us went on to have great jobs and families and a couple of us went back and forth to jail and were involved in drugs. Everyone reacts differently to things that happen to them.
I could never assume that if I spank my daughter that she will react as I did or will she react as my sister or brother did at home?? I can tell you that my sister and I both have children and my sister spanks and I do not. So not only did we both turn out to be productive in society–we both have made different decisions when it comes to spanking. How do we know any of what happened had anything to do with spanking?? I cannot tell you.
I can tell you that I often wonder if my Mom was really trying to teach me something or if she was hitting me out of her own frustration. I do love and respect my Mother very much–but I often see her as a frustrated individual who wants things to go her way. I respect her for taking care of all os us in the best way she knew how and I love her for hanging in there the best she could. But my respect does not come from a very strong love for her-When I think of how I feel for her what comes to mind is “Mind your P’s and Q’s young lady or your gonna get it” What DOES NOT come to mind is “you did great, come here and give me a big hug.”
I was not beaten, and I feel no need to go into the “degree” of which I was spanked, I have no recollection of how hard she hit me or how often. Just that it happened-that in itslef is enough for me.
All in all, I have to be very willing to leave my comfort zone when it comes to doing what is best for my daughter. It would be easy to whack her one on the butt If I could know in my heart that would work for her. But I cannot assume that will work and I am not willing to take the chance that she will associate the negative feelings of being hit with me. I want her to feel secure in her love for me, not to fear how I will react when she makes a mistake, does something for attention, etc…
I thank everyone who has taken the time to post and to read. We are all learning and gaining more than we could ever know-just by communicating. Bless the ones that even take the time to do this.
I hope we are all having a great Holiday Season!!
I don’t use spanking as a form of discipling my children. I was spanked as a child and learned very early what not to do. However, my very excentric brother-in-law once told me that children need to express themselves and beating them prohibts that natural curosity needed to not only survive, but to succeed. Easily said than done, my son who has AHAD gives me a run for my money. Sometimes, I want to spank/beat/kill him, but thanks to this website and other inspirational material, I pray and pray that I can help him to become a productive adult. It’s hard, but thank God for this website.
Tell me what I can do instead of beating him? I’ve taken away everything including Christmas, atlas, he is immuned to even that? What next?